This was part of a thread on the Bible and whether it should be read as myth, fact or legend. I found it fascinating.
JamesK (Fri, Jan 26/07, 04:34 pm)wrote:
Serena
I believe the pile of pages we call the Bible is a fact. And history points out that it is a selection of old (and very old) writings, all of which were created by men and, possibly, women. The "selecting" and discarding was done by other men.
What they selected was a mixture of myths and legends.
Noah and his ark is a myth because it is totally unworkable (for one, you can't flood the whole earth).
Many of the Old Testament stories are likely legends because they contain some elements of what probably happened.
Most of the New Testament is likely fact but got a bit twisted in the telling and recording.
In short - the Bible is a huge mixture.
monasksit (Fri, Jan 26/07 08:38 pm) wrote:
Floating boats and Noah's ark, how about this tidbit I stumbled on from Genesis:
Gen 6:19"(U)And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female.
20"(V)Of the birds after their kind, and of the animals after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.
Gen 7:2"You shall take with you of every (B)clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female;
3also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth.
Almost like two versions of the same story, one, the one I was more familiar with, using the common two-by-two motif, then the lesser- known seven-by-seven (or I guess that would be actually 7 pairs so it would be 14 by 14), creating havoc in many illustrators lives for sure.
Beautiful, wonderful, mystical and inspiring myth that challenged our ancestors and still makes us pause to think even in this modern era. Amen and Awomen!
klaatu (Fri, Jan 26/07 08:40 pm):
"Beautiful, wonderful, mystical and inspiring myth that challenged our ancestors and still makes us pause to think even in this modern era."
You got it, monaskit!
StephenGordon (Fri, Jan 26/07 09:24 pm):
trivia tidbit I once heard but am not certain of, my math skills are terrible. The 7 clean was supposedly done so that while the land was flooded Noah would not have to eat of the unclean.... I'm just saying...
I think the more mystical, interpretive tidbit to chew on is that Noah knew what was clean and unclean before the giving of Torah on Mt. Sinai. This is also apparently when humans began eating meat. =)
monasksit (Fri, Jan 26/07 09:47 pm):
Oooh, good point! Noah was not only 600 years old, but he could see the future and Moses's orders about diet. Cool! Too bad he didn't warn his descendants to not sew coats of many colors for their spoiled youngest sons :)
Myths are meaningful, I repeat, Myths are meaningful!
StephenGordon (Fri, Jan 26/07 10:11 pm):
Noah is a good place to also see the influence the time period had on the importance of recorded events.There were eight people remaining in the entire world. They were Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth... and??? and??? well Noah's wife and the son's wives.... their names were???
Some things were important in ancient times and some things were not.
January 26, 2007
January 19, 2007
Reading Scripture the Jewish way
A wondercafe poster has been explaining scripture in a very unique way. She has a lot of experience with Judaism, and the way it looks at the Bible is very refreshing. She sent me the following info:
It is PaRDeS. like a dreidel the letters are initials. They stand for Peshat, Remez, Derash, Sod.
Peshat = the surface meaning
Remez = allusions or allegories
Derash = midrash way of finding new lessons
Sod = the hidden mystical Kabbalah way
It is PaRDeS. like a dreidel the letters are initials. They stand for Peshat, Remez, Derash, Sod.
Peshat = the surface meaning
Remez = allusions or allegories
Derash = midrash way of finding new lessons
Sod = the hidden mystical Kabbalah way
January 03, 2007
The Bible on Homosexuality
Sighsnootles posted this on WonderCafe.ca and I think it is a great summation of the Bible's stance on Homosexuality.
Genesis 19: 1-28 - The ancient story of Sodom and Gomorrah
first of all, i want to say that the common reaction to this story ticks me off right from the get go... the fact that lot was going to send out his two daughters to be gang raped by an angry mob, and nobody has a problem with this?!?!? anyways, i digress....
there a few errors in the translation from the hebrew scriptures to the english version we have now that i feel are pretty major to the interpretation... the word that has been translated as intercourse is 'yada', which means 'get to know'. had the author of this scripture wanted to say that the mob wanted to have sexual intercourse with lots visitors, he probably would have used the word 'shakab'. this word denotes sexual activity. the word 'yada' appears in the hebrew scriptures over 900 times, and in every other context is used as meaning to get acquainted with someone. yet, in this particular passage, it somehow was changed to mean 'intercourse'.
therefore, that entire passage should read something more like this... 'where are the mortals who came here tonight?? bring them out here so that we may get acquainted with them.'
now, if you look at it again, there are a few other problems as well... for the story to be a condemnation of homosexuality, the ENTIRE CITY must have been homosexual. this is impossible, but even if it were true, why on earth would lot have sent his DAUGHTERS out to a homosexual male mob??? it states that lots daughters were virgins, and we know that sacrificing virgins was something very common in pagan idol worship. and we also know that lot lived in a pagan city.
elsewhere in the bible, sodom is refered to again, in ezekiel 16...
"Look! This is what proved to be the error of Sodom your sister: Pride, sufficiency of bread and the carefreeness of keeping undisturbed were what happened to belong to her and her dependent towns, and the hand of the afflicted one and the poor one she did not strengthen. And they continued to be haughty and to carry on a detestable thing before me, and I finally removed them, just as I saw fit"
the hebrew word that was translated as 'detestable thing' is towebah, and this word literally translates out as 'to commit idol worship'.
therefore, the problem of sodom and gamorrah isn't homosexuality at all. the sin commited here is idol worship.
______________________________________________
Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13
leviticus is an interesting book. if you look at the context of the time it was writeen, the isrealites were living in a real 'get out there and multiply' kind of time... they were the chosen ones, so they had a duty to be really fertile. therefore, even masturbation was a HUGE sin.
leviticus is also part of the 'mosaic law', which also forbade haircuts, shaving, and wearing clothing with blended fibres, among other things. the law was such that if you broke one law, then you were guilty of breaking them all.
so, for us to use the leviticus passages to condemn homosexuality, we would also be equally condemning people who shave and get their hair cut.
we allow people who shave and get their hair cut to get married, accept sacraments, and share equally in our church, so it doesn't make ANY sense whatsoever to forbid equality to homosexuals based on the levitical text.
__________________________________________
Romans 1:26-27
1 Cor. 6: 9-11
1 Tim. 1:9-11
i've discussed this one on another thread, but basically, the words that translated out as homosexual or 'men who lie with men' in these texts were 'arsenokoites' and 'malakos'.
arsenokoites litterally means 'lift bed', but bible scholars now believe that at the time, it was used to denote a male temple prostitute. malakos litterally translates out as 'spineless', or coward.
now, in my 'new american bible for catholics', there is an asterisk by the term 'homosexual' in these particular passages, which states...
'the term translated as 'practicing homosexuals' refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with boy prostitutes, i.e.boys or young men who were kept for the purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the greco-roman world.'
therefore, i'd suggest that the texts above are a condemnation of pedophilia, prostitution, promiscuity, and idolatry, and not at all a condemnation of a consensual, committed homosexual relationship.
Genesis 19: 1-28 - The ancient story of Sodom and Gomorrah
first of all, i want to say that the common reaction to this story ticks me off right from the get go... the fact that lot was going to send out his two daughters to be gang raped by an angry mob, and nobody has a problem with this?!?!? anyways, i digress....
there a few errors in the translation from the hebrew scriptures to the english version we have now that i feel are pretty major to the interpretation... the word that has been translated as intercourse is 'yada', which means 'get to know'. had the author of this scripture wanted to say that the mob wanted to have sexual intercourse with lots visitors, he probably would have used the word 'shakab'. this word denotes sexual activity. the word 'yada' appears in the hebrew scriptures over 900 times, and in every other context is used as meaning to get acquainted with someone. yet, in this particular passage, it somehow was changed to mean 'intercourse'.
therefore, that entire passage should read something more like this... 'where are the mortals who came here tonight?? bring them out here so that we may get acquainted with them.'
now, if you look at it again, there are a few other problems as well... for the story to be a condemnation of homosexuality, the ENTIRE CITY must have been homosexual. this is impossible, but even if it were true, why on earth would lot have sent his DAUGHTERS out to a homosexual male mob??? it states that lots daughters were virgins, and we know that sacrificing virgins was something very common in pagan idol worship. and we also know that lot lived in a pagan city.
elsewhere in the bible, sodom is refered to again, in ezekiel 16...
"Look! This is what proved to be the error of Sodom your sister: Pride, sufficiency of bread and the carefreeness of keeping undisturbed were what happened to belong to her and her dependent towns, and the hand of the afflicted one and the poor one she did not strengthen. And they continued to be haughty and to carry on a detestable thing before me, and I finally removed them, just as I saw fit"
the hebrew word that was translated as 'detestable thing' is towebah, and this word literally translates out as 'to commit idol worship'.
therefore, the problem of sodom and gamorrah isn't homosexuality at all. the sin commited here is idol worship.
______________________________________________
Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13
leviticus is an interesting book. if you look at the context of the time it was writeen, the isrealites were living in a real 'get out there and multiply' kind of time... they were the chosen ones, so they had a duty to be really fertile. therefore, even masturbation was a HUGE sin.
leviticus is also part of the 'mosaic law', which also forbade haircuts, shaving, and wearing clothing with blended fibres, among other things. the law was such that if you broke one law, then you were guilty of breaking them all.
so, for us to use the leviticus passages to condemn homosexuality, we would also be equally condemning people who shave and get their hair cut.
we allow people who shave and get their hair cut to get married, accept sacraments, and share equally in our church, so it doesn't make ANY sense whatsoever to forbid equality to homosexuals based on the levitical text.
__________________________________________
Romans 1:26-27
1 Cor. 6: 9-11
1 Tim. 1:9-11
i've discussed this one on another thread, but basically, the words that translated out as homosexual or 'men who lie with men' in these texts were 'arsenokoites' and 'malakos'.
arsenokoites litterally means 'lift bed', but bible scholars now believe that at the time, it was used to denote a male temple prostitute. malakos litterally translates out as 'spineless', or coward.
now, in my 'new american bible for catholics', there is an asterisk by the term 'homosexual' in these particular passages, which states...
'the term translated as 'practicing homosexuals' refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with boy prostitutes, i.e.boys or young men who were kept for the purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the greco-roman world.'
therefore, i'd suggest that the texts above are a condemnation of pedophilia, prostitution, promiscuity, and idolatry, and not at all a condemnation of a consensual, committed homosexual relationship.
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